Author Topic: Formats (from: "A850!" thread)  (Read 1919 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Goonybird

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 94
    • View Profile
Formats (from: "A850!" thread)
« on: August 03, 2009, 06:53:52 PM »
Thank you Simon for that link.
While I want an A700, the A850 looks very interesting. with the A700 body circa £550 and the A900 Circa £1600+,
Could the A850 just break under the £1000 mark.
Sony certainly have the "clout"
It would really stuff Canon/Nikon.

However I do wonder if APS-C sensor is best suited for Amateur to Semi-Pro level, and 35mm Full frame for the Professional in a similar way we had 35mm film and medium format?

Stef

Mod edit: This thread was split from about the fourth page of A850!, so some replies might not seem consistent. I've done my best to choose the most relevant to be here and to remain in the A850! thread. Apologies if need be and where necessary. Winjeel.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2009, 10:59:57 AM by winjeel »
A700 CZ16-80, Sony 70-300G, Sony 70-400G, Sony 50mm 1.4, Sigma 50-150, Sigma 18-200, Sigma EX 2x converter, Sony HVL42,PaintShopPro X2. Tamron 35-135

Offline Clive

  • Moderator
  • Friend of DynaxDigital
  • ******
  • Posts: 9856
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • My galleries
Formats (from:
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2009, 07:03:27 PM »
Goonybird

Good question, "However I do wonder if APS-C sensor is best suited for Amateur to Semi-Pro level, and 35mm Full frame for the Professional in a similar way we had 35mm film and medium format?" I asked that a while back. Seems so. Although I had (have) a medium format I was always happy with the 35-mm format. I am thinking that a FF is equivalent to a medium format as well. Not sue I want or need one. I am more interested in a faster 400-mm lens over a new bigger body. Am also interested in zero noise at ISO 1,600. ;) 

Clive
Galleries
============================================
Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted, counts. Albert Einstein

Offline Asher

  • Friend of DynaxDigital
  • *****
  • Posts: 1298
    • View Profile
    • photos.ashernet.co.uk
Formats (from:
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2009, 09:33:30 PM »
Medium format film cameras are considerably larger and more expensive than 35mm, also the film and processing must be much more expensive for medium format than for 35mm.  They are the reasons that medium format film is very much a professional only format.  Those factors don't really come in to consideration when comparing 35mm (full frame) digital and APS-C digital.  FF cameras are only marginally larger than eqivalent APS-C (subframe) cameras and the price of full frame digital is coming down. Also most of the good lenses are full frame lenses.

Offline winjeel

  • Past Moderator
  • Friend of DynaxDigital
  • *****
  • Posts: 5413
  • Gender: Male
  • Gelight
    • japanesephotos
    • JapanesePhotos
    • View Profile
    • JapanesePhotos.Asia
Formats (from:
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2009, 05:29:58 AM »
Medium format film cameras are considerably larger and more expensive than 35mm, also the film and processing must be much more expensive for medium format than for 35mm.  They are the reasons that medium format film is very much a professional only format.  Those factors don't really come in to consideration when comparing 35mm (full frame) digital and APS-C digital.  FF cameras are only marginally larger than eqivalent APS-C (subframe) cameras and the price of full frame digital is coming down. Also most of the good lenses are full frame lenses.

I can't completely agree. The editorial photographer argues pretty well that shooting film is cheaper: http://www.editorialphoto.com/outreachep/digital_manifesto.asp If you've reading elsewhere here, you might know that I've now fallen back to my film camera as the Alpha Sweet virtually died on the weekend; it's now only useful as a light meter for my film camera. My Seagull cost me about AUD$250, 16 years ago. A new top level camera, say the D7D, A700, A900 would have cost quite a lot if you had bought each generation. If I get a Second hand Alpha 7 (aka Dynax 7), it will cost me about 19,000 yen, and it's full frame, but I'll still be dependent on whatever film scanning technology there is. I saw a 5mp film scanner yesterday (plenty for basic web use) for 14,000 yen. Then consider the frequency of digital slr generations and compare that to the quantity of film that might equal and basic developing (no prints or scans). So one roll of film is Y400 + basic developing Y700 = Y1,100; Sony A900 = Y300,000, so that equals about 272 rolls of film with basic (professional) developing, which is 9,792 frames. So, if you plan to shoot more than say 10,000 shots per digital generation, then I'd argue that going digital is better, otherwise film is still quite competitive. But in terms of my experience, digital may fail, and you're left with your 16 year old camera again.

In terms of what most folks here do, then going digital is perhaps financially better, but... cost of storage, photoshop or lightroom (I still used lightroom with film for presentation here) complicates the benefits more.

Considering this, I'd argue that digital cameras still need to be a lot cheaper or a wider gap between generations, so we can fully get financial benefit from each generation that we buy into. That would mean that the longer the camera lasts the more value you get, so that explains my frustration at the death of my KM Alpha Sweet, and ... I'd better stop there. ;)

Anyway, rounding back to the topic of medium format, I don't know exactly for sure, but if I were professional, it'd be only now that I'd be considering the next generation of digital backs for my Hasselblad or Mamiya, otherwise I'd still be on film, and be processing it myself.

Out of interest, how many people shoot more than 10,000 shots a year? And, how many shots did you take before upgrading to the next digital slr? And, how many years between upgrades?

(depending on responses, this maybe split from the A850 thread)
JapanesePhotos.Asia; Some basic photographic how to's.
Sony the200, Minolta 28mm 2.8, 50mm 1.4, 70-300mm Gregarious, 100mm 2.8 macro.

Offline tpe

  • Past Moderator
  • Friend of DynaxDigital
  • *****
  • Posts: 3838
  • Gender: Male
  • tpe, aka tim
    • View Profile
    • Scientific reference pictures and other stuf
Formats (from:
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2009, 07:02:04 AM »
Winjeel, ouch again. But you have just thouroughly convinced me that I should go and get a roll of film and batteries for one of the old bodies :).

Tim

Online Bigbreakfast

  • Friend of DynaxDigital
  • *****
  • Posts: 1147
  • Gender: Male
    • Paul O'Toole
    • Pj_otoole
    • @_Bigbreakfast
    • View Profile
    • Flickr
Formats (from:
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2009, 07:53:27 AM »
Winjeel I have a bunch of film cameras and I never use them any more.
The maths doesn't work out in the uk I'm afraid (for me anyway)

On a typical car or bike motorsport day I shoot 1000 shots and end up with 700 after deleting
Based on about £8 for film purchase and developing that would cost £220. The A700 costs £600 so three days worth. On film I would take far less and would stick to 'safe' easy images with no experimentation.

My A700 was an insurance replacement for my KM7D - which was obviously not being made by then. Now the A700 is not being produced I wonder if the same situation happened would they now suggest the A850? I have to agree with Clive - if I found £1200 in the bank I'd be spending it on glass rather than a new shiney body. I print A3 regularly and the A700 is great up to A3  - unless I get a new job as a pro printing posters for the sides of buses I'll stick to my A700 for now. (I reserve the right to edit this post in a years time when we will all be wondering how we managed with 12 mp having just bought 70mp monsters. :-))
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. Albert Einstein
A700, sigma 70-200 2.8, sigma 105 macro, 70 -400 G, M42 lineup Helios F2 58mm, Carl Zeiss 50m F1.8, Pentax Super Takumar 135mm F3.5 - 'Be cruel, harsh, picky or just fussy - but when you critique my work please feel free to be honest!'

Offline winjeel

  • Past Moderator
  • Friend of DynaxDigital
  • *****
  • Posts: 5413
  • Gender: Male
  • Gelight
    • japanesephotos
    • JapanesePhotos
    • View Profile
    • JapanesePhotos.Asia
Formats (from:
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2009, 08:14:24 AM »
Definitely for that kind of volume digital is probably a sensible option, especially as you'd be changing memory cards far less often as you would film rolls. I remember you telling us about the insurance replacement. IF something did happen, they'd have to replace it with the A900, atm. ;) Though, A850 / A900, and if they asked me to wait a bit for the A850, I wouldn't grumble for too long. :)

Edit: Forgot to add this and reply...

Winjeel, ouch again. But you have just thouroughly convinced me that I should go and get a roll of film and batteries for one of the old bodies :).

Tim

In your current situation, I would be as well. It's been fun going to full frame 36 frame analogue silver halide sensor.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2009, 08:18:35 AM by winjeel »
JapanesePhotos.Asia; Some basic photographic how to's.
Sony the200, Minolta 28mm 2.8, 50mm 1.4, 70-300mm Gregarious, 100mm 2.8 macro.

Offline Stef.

  • Moderator
  • Friend of DynaxDigital
  • ******
  • Posts: 10767
    • View Profile
    • Stef's photographs
Formats (from:
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2009, 09:47:17 AM »
Quote
Anyway, rounding back to the topic of medium format, I don't know exactly for sure, but if I were professional, it'd be only now that I'd be considering the next generation of digital backs for my Hasselblad or Mamiya, otherwise I'd still be on film, and be processing it myself.

Out of interest, how many people shoot more than 10,000 shots a year? And, how many shots did you take before upgrading to the next digital slr? And, how many years between upgrades?

(depending on responses, this maybe split from the A850 thread)

Winjeel- I don't want to go down the road discussing what is cheaper and what not as this depends on soo much more than just the camera body- i.e. whether you have already your computer equipment for other reasons or not...(btw I shoot much more that 10000 shots per year)
What has not been mentioned is the quality of images (as far as I know- I have not read the whole thread- so apologies if it was mentioned): the Sony A900 can easily compete with a Mamiya medium format equipment these days. The digital backs are not bees' knees. They are fine up to ISO200 and after that you are running into problems.
Re.: film: this is also a question of time- it jsut takes soo much longer to develop film and scan it. Until not that long ago I processed all my films (colour and b+w) and printed the stuff in my darkrooms. The quality of colour prints from the darkroom did beat the prints from printers until lately. Now with the new generations of printers available I would challenge anybody to tell me the difference and usually it is in favour of the non- digital darkroom ones.
Whether digital photography or negatives is cheaper really depends on the personal circumstances IMHO.
Stef.
Stef.'s photographs
flickr

"Dream as if you'll live forever- live as if you'll die today"

Offline Simon [aka springtide]

  • Article Contributor
  • Friend of DynaxDigital
  • *****
  • Posts: 2442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Formats (from:
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2009, 09:55:00 AM »
Winjeel I have a bunch of film cameras and I never use them any more.
The maths doesn't work out in the uk I'm afraid (for me anyway)

On a typical car or bike motorsport day I shoot 1000 shots and end up with 700 after deleting
Based on about £8 for film purchase and developing that would cost £220. The A700 costs £600 so three days worth. On film I would take far less and would stick to 'safe' easy images with no experimentation.

My A700 was an insurance replacement for my KM7D - which was obviously not being made by then. Now the A700 is not being produced I wonder if the same situation happened would they now suggest the A850? I have to agree with Clive - if I found £1200 in the bank I'd be spending it on glass rather than a new shiney body. I print A3 regularly and the A700 is great up to A3  - unless I get a new job as a pro printing posters for the sides of buses I'll stick to my A700 for now. (I reserve the right to edit this post in a years time when we will all be wondering how we managed with 12 mp having just bought 70mp monsters. :-))

OMG, I have thought about this soo many times..... and I don't think it's black and white..

Playing devils advocate here....
but if you are happy with the resolution that  your a700 gives with a cheaper lens at your regular print size, why spent £1200 on glass?

I guess there is the argument about having faster glass... but if you shot two images, one with the Sigma 70-200/2.8 and Sony 70-200/2.8 and printed both at a3, would you be able to see the difference in quality at this print size?  What I'm saying is better glass also gives you more resolution in the same way as a higher resolution body.

OK, so buying good glass and/or  high resolution body appears to allow us to get more resolution...

OK,l so if we ignore long lenses....

So if the a850 was priced at £1000 (which I personally don't think it will be so cheap, but that's just my opinion) if we say compared:

a850 + Tam 17-35 + Tam 28-75 = £1000 + £350 + £350 = £1700
a700 + Sony 11-18 + CZ16-80 = £600 + £470 + £550 = £1620

And remember, with the Sony FF cameras, the APS-C image is 11MP (so very close to the a700 resolution). Longer lenses are usually FF, so there is no argument for an APS-C body gives you a x1.5 crop factor advantage (it's more like x1.1) for the same lens.
And if you didn't want the large file sizes, just switch the camera to APS-C mode.

I've missed out a whole load of other factors, but personally I think it's far from straight forward.
Both APS-C and FF have advantages, but I don't think you can make generalised statements comparing the two formats because the APS-C and FF cameras are so different.  i.e.  If we were talking about Nikons, d300 vs d700 - the crop factor argument for APS-C holds true.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2009, 10:00:09 AM by Simon [aka springtide] »
NEX-7

flickr

Offline Faldrax

  • Friend of DynaxDigital
  • *****
  • Posts: 1191
  • Gender: Male
    • Faldrax
    • View Profile
    • Faldrax
Re: Formats (from: "A850!" thread)
« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2009, 11:37:41 AM »
I think the whole 'what to spend $xyz' on depends on the individual, what they wan to shoot, and what they have at the moment.

Having recently moved up to the A700 (courtesy of a 'new-for-old' insurance policy and the theft of a couple of old Minolta 5000 bodies) and been wowed by the improvements over the A200 I would love to try the A900 as all the reports are that it is even better.

BUT with my current lens line up simply switching to the A900 would only give me partial benefit, so I would be 'better' to spend the cash on improving that (eg add a FF UW zoom or the 70-400G, or ...) as a precursor.

Unless, of course, I win the lottery tonight in which case i can get the A900 AND the lenses to match it :-)



It is difficult to explain to white mice that black cats are lucky...

A900 + VG, A700 + VG, A200
Sig 12-24 EX DG, Sigma 24-70 f/2.8 HSM, 70-300G, 50 f1.4, 85 f1.4 G RS, Sig 400 F5.6, Sony 100 f2.8 Macro
Manfrotto 190xProB + 804RC2, F56-AM, 3600 HSD, Delta DRF-14 S Ring flash

Offline fnugry

  • Regular Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 120
    • View Profile
Re: Formats (from: "A850!" thread)
« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2009, 11:57:16 AM »
A lens quality is more than the resolution figures. And I do definetly agree with those investing in optics rather than new body. speed, overall contrast, performance (resolution) across the whole aperture range, correction of optical distortions, build quality, focusing speed - there are rather significant differences there. And of course it is a much wiser investment: you can use your glass with whatever body you're going to buy in the future and it's value remains almost constant after the initial depreciation. A quality lens  still goes for up to 2/3 of the new price even when it's 10 years old, as long as it's in good working order. 
D5D, Sony 50mm F1.4, Sigma 12-24mm, Sony 24-70mm F2.8

Offline winjeel

  • Past Moderator
  • Friend of DynaxDigital
  • *****
  • Posts: 5413
  • Gender: Male
  • Gelight
    • japanesephotos
    • JapanesePhotos
    • View Profile
    • JapanesePhotos.Asia
Re: Formats (from: "A850!" thread)
« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2009, 12:06:58 PM »
Stef makes some great points. I'm tempted to say, that unless you plan to shoot less than about 270 rolls of film per camera generation (roughly defined as being the frequency you'd replace your camera - once every three years?), then using film is better; if not, getting an A900 is better. However, there are a multitude of factors. As Bigbreakfast says, the cost of film and developing in some countries would skew that formula (which is based on Japanese prices). As both he and Stef say, volume of pictures and genre (like sports) would probably give the nod to digital again. However, that's only simplistically comparing film to the A900.

Not having had my own dark room (only b&w paper and access to the high school dark room and chem's), and not having printers either, I've got no idea as to which would cost less.

However, and personally, given that LightRoom fast forwards so much, I'd dare say that I'd prefer LightRoom to darkroom. I know that LightRoom costs 34,000 yen, but no idea as to the cost of chemicals for just developing a roll.
JapanesePhotos.Asia; Some basic photographic how to's.
Sony the200, Minolta 28mm 2.8, 50mm 1.4, 70-300mm Gregarious, 100mm 2.8 macro.

Online FarmerDave

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 395
    • View Profile
Re: Formats (from: "A850!" thread)
« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2009, 03:27:57 PM »
I don't buy the argument of spending $ on glass instead of going from APS-C to FF because most of us will always be in the hunt for more glass and most of us don't have an unlimited budget. It is a matter of priority.
It make sense to me if you are shooting with A700 and CZ 24-70 but thinking of the CZ16-35, then the A850 would be a great addition.
I agree with the others the FF 24.6mp gives you that medium format feel. The A850 would open that door to many who finds the A900 a bit pricey.

Offline mphotoservices

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 719
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Formats (from: "A850!" thread)
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2009, 04:13:31 PM »
I don't buy the argument of spending $ on glass instead of going from APS-C to FF because most of us will always be in the hunt for more glass and most of us don't have an unlimited budget. It is a matter of priority.
It make sense to me if you are shooting with A700 and CZ 24-70 but thinking of the CZ16-35, then the A850 would be a great addition.
I agree with the others the FF 24.6mp gives you that medium format feel. The A850 would open that door to many who finds the A900 a bit pricey.
I normally would say Glass first, lighting second, bodies third because depreciation makes me sick :)
This F.F. opportunity may make me take a leap. Either at the new (which I swore I would never buy new again) A850 or I will be watching what the A900 price point does post release.
On the other hand I have not had any complaints from my clients to date. Should I just be patient and wait for a A950 or A1000 to come out and then go after the A900 which would be my normal plan of attack. Throwing the A850 out there has really screwed with my planning and budgeting :)
mphotoservices
A700 w/VG, A100 w/VG
Minolta 50 1.7, 28 2.8, 80-200 2.8 G,
Tokina ATX Pro 28-80 2.8, Sigma 10-20 4-5.6, Vivitar Series1 17-35 3.5-5.6
Sony 1-F58AM, 1-F56AM  2-Fong Light Spheres
Bogen, Manfrotto 3245, 3216 mono's, 3001, 3021 tri's, 3245 head, Kaiden Kiwi+ Nodel Pano head
Alien Bees 2-1600, 2-800, 4-400
Macbook Pro unibody loaded
And 1/2 a garage of othe

Offline JohnLarsen

  • Regular Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 123
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Formats (from: "A850!" thread)
« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2009, 06:47:05 PM »
Winjeel,
I believe you concentrate too much on the money in your calculation.

To do a more close 1:1 comparison you would need to develop your films at home, and maybe even do the prints. And this brings the bad 'time is money' figure in there.

When I get home loaded with digital images I can print them, or show them on the forum 15 minutes later, that's prett difficult if you want a shop to do basic development.

I used to develop and print when things were b&w, but when it got to to colours I never bothered. Now the world has changed, and I am happy about that.

My old Nikon SLR is not around any longer :-)

Regards,
John
a700 - Sigma 18-50mm f2.8 + Sigma 70-200mm f2.8 + KM 28mm f2.8 + Tamron 90mm f2.8 Macro "272" + Sigma EF-500 Super (SO)-ADI blitz + Vosonic 2160
Shoot 'em with a Sony, John