Author Topic: More annoying flash questions  (Read 52527 times)

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Offline Numpty

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More annoying flash questions
« on: November 16, 2008, 10:56:46 PM »
Looking at the sony "36" flash for about 85 pounds good price?

When using my tamron 90 macro at 1:1 the lens is too long for the on camera flash will the extra height of the 36 allow me to illuminate the close subject?

Can i fire this flash without it being on the camera and does the on camera have to flash?

Thanks all in advance.
Sony A300, Sony A550, Sony 18-70mm,18-55mm, 50mm SAM, 35mm SAM, 70-300 SSM G Tamron 90mm Macro, 17-50mm, Sony HVL-36FM 2xYonguno 460 Flash, Delta Macro FLash
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Offline Simon [aka springtide]

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Re: More annoying flash questions
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2008, 11:05:29 PM »

Not sure I can answer your questions, but re: 36

First thing is that is doesn't do manual.  I think if you select manual you get full power.  Might not be an issue or it might be.

You should be able to use a cable to trigger the flash, unless you want to use the 'wireless option' via the pop-up flash.  The issue with the wireless is that is only seems to work in low light at short distances.

You can trigger via radio triggers, but it's not worth it due to the cost of the FS-1200 adapters (if you can find them!) and triggers.

Th 56's have full manual control, which I think is more useful.
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Offline Numpty

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Re: More annoying flash questions
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2008, 11:25:44 PM »
I dont tend to shoot in manual mode more just apperture as i am still learning so not a problem and it sounds good that i can fire off the camera does this still do all the metering etc?
Sony A300, Sony A550, Sony 18-70mm,18-55mm, 50mm SAM, 35mm SAM, 70-300 SSM G Tamron 90mm Macro, 17-50mm, Sony HVL-36FM 2xYonguno 460 Flash, Delta Macro FLash
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Offline dominicall

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Re: More annoying flash questions
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2008, 11:56:52 PM »
Hi Numpty

Hope the below helps.

I posted some butterfly shots recently taken with the Tamron 90mm with flash. I was using the 58 flash anywhere between 60 and 90 degree bounce using the bounce card, with flash mode set to pre-flash TTL.

There's no in built-in bounce card on the 36 I understand but it's pretty easy to make one - see here.

With pre-flash TTL the flash should fire at the correct power for the shot and would give you the results you want.  You can see the two butterfly posts here and here.

I love the Tamron - a great lens - happy shooting with it.

Dominic
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Offline Stef.

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Re: More annoying flash questions
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2008, 01:58:25 AM »
(1) You can get the following flash cable: Minolta OC-1100 which connects the flash via cable to the hotshoe mount. You can then use the flash on a little stand approx 80 cm away from the camera. If you use a silk stocking in beige or white you can diffuse your flash as much as you need.
(2) I am not sure which camera you use but you can also put the flash onto the camera > then turn camera on and flash on > set in your camera menu the flash to wireless > turn both off > take the flash from the camera put it onto a stand> turn both back on > raise the little on-camera flash and trigger the flash wireless
(3) You can get an adapter called Minolta FS1100 which mounts onto your camera's hotshoe onto which you can mount a little adapter with sync lead connection: now here you have two choices or even more: (a) just put any flash onto the adapter- just check the voltage so that you don't blow it up- but any cheap flash might do the trick and youcan shoot with it (b) and here it gets interesting: with that cheap flash you can trigger any amount of other flashes as long as they have a little slave cell attached. This slave cell some call it "eye" attaches to any flash with sync port via a little sync lead (cost about $20). In other words you can put up let's say 5 flashes with little sync cables and slave cells all over your room. Once you trigger the on board flash (be careful to set in your menu to no pre-flash or turn red-eye reduction off as it pre-flashes) all other flashes sync. Now this sound more complicated as it actually is! These little slave cells actually save you a radio trigger. I use them a lot.

I hope this was helpful? The above are the three methods I usually use when not operating my studio flash.

Stef.
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Offline Simon [aka springtide]

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Re: More annoying flash questions
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2008, 11:50:52 AM »

FYI

[OPs Sig states camera = A300]

I don't think the A200/A300/A350 has a manual flash control in the camera (options are only ADI or TTL, no Manual flash control).

I'm pretty sure that I found that even when setting my A700 camera to 'Manual', the A700 still does pre-lash when using the pop-up flash. (I was getting black shots when triggering studio strobes with their built-in slave triggers, even though the strobes appeared to be firing).

So if you want to trigger slave flashes, you need to use a non minolta/sony flash with the FS-1100 adapter (which is a pain if you want to mix sony and other brand flashes)
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Offline Numpty

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Re: More annoying flash questions
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2008, 07:29:20 PM »
Very helpful everyone thanks alot it seems it will do all i require from it.
Sony A300, Sony A550, Sony 18-70mm,18-55mm, 50mm SAM, 35mm SAM, 70-300 SSM G Tamron 90mm Macro, 17-50mm, Sony HVL-36FM 2xYonguno 460 Flash, Delta Macro FLash
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Offline Stef.

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Re: More annoying flash questions
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2008, 08:19:08 PM »
O.K. here we go: the proof of my statement above:


Sony A700 used with on-board flash to trigger an expensive Metz 45 CL3 flash and an extremely cheap Centon F.G.3.0.D flash (somewhere around $10). In the menu of the A700 I set the flash to manual. Regarding Springtide's comment: If you set it to pre-flash ttl you can trigger the Metz flash but not the cheaper Centon. In other words if you have no manual setting in the A300 or 350 there are still a lot of flashes out there that you can trigger with pre-flash ttl! Please alsosee the little slave cell attached to the non-Sony flashes!



This time I used a HVL F58 AM flash and not the on-camera flash to trigger the other two flashes. The Sony flash was attached to the hotshoe via the mentioned cable and you can see it in the foreground to the left. This time the camera was set to manual priority instead of A or S and in the menu the flash was set to manual finally I also set the Sony flash itself to manual. So set all you can to manual ;) So you see this works as well.

Now to last points:
a) before you ask how to control the output of the different flashes used. Well- stockings; bounce of walls; white plastic bags; umbrellas; bounce of white/coloured sheets of paper; put baking paper in front of the flash and last but not least the most important: you control the output by the distance of the flash to the subject you photograph and often you can control the output directly on the flash i.e my Metz flashes can do that the Centon as it is too cheap can't :P

b) wireless flash CAN NOT be used in connection with non-Sony flashes BUT considering the fact that there are tons of cheap flashes out there and the slave cells cost you around 15$ this is the much cheaper version and frankly I have 5 Sony flashes and around well plenty of non-Sony flashes including three Metz. The wireless system does not work as well in my opinion as the slave cells. Each time I find a cheap flash I buy it immediately - together with a slave cell.

If you look carefully at the pics- yes the Metz is set to 1/16 of it's possible full output while the Centon is set to full power but no too bad for such a little one- don't you think? It's the perfect output for highlights on hair just to give an example.

Hope this shows how it is possible to use non Sony flashes with Sony cameras and I really hope that the one or other of you will give it a try as it is the cheapest and I think most effective way to get into studio photography!
Stef.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2008, 08:33:25 PM by Stef. »
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Offline Simon [aka springtide]

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Re: More annoying flash questions
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2008, 08:31:58 PM »
Thanks Stef for this info!

It was a long time ago when I tried this and I couldn't seem to get it to work correctly with my strobes.  I did think it was strange at the time, but assumed that the preflash just occured regardless of the setting!

Anyway, thanks again!

Simon  :)

Oh, a question for you Stef....

BTW, do you use any PW, Cybersync, Skyport, Cactus radio triggers?
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Offline Stef.

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Re: More annoying flash questions
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2008, 08:42:52 PM »
Simon- I don't use radio triggers as I never had the slightest hiccup with my beloved slave cells. I don't know how far they work but I can tell you we managed to trigger them when we really did NOT want them to go off. I had once a shooting on a very early morning at a lake to do some stills of the movie Don't Look Now and we were able to trigger all sorts of flashes with these little slave cells half way over and around the lake. I can't tell you how much I would love to urge you all to go and give it a try as it is soo much cheaper! Not that I care that much about money when it comes to good equipment but people seem to be soo afraid of experimenting with flash set ups and it's sooooo easy. I can only repeat just go out and pick up every cheap functioning flash you possibly can but don't forget the slave cells. Also don't forget- you can manually trigger these flashes if your exposure time is long enough. I.e if you want to light an aquarium from Behind- get an assistant to run on the other side of the aquarium- set the exposure time to roughly one second- count loud to three and get your friend to trigger the flash manually while you trigger the camera. Each time I give a lecture regarding flash it seems people are scared of it ???
Anyhow please let me know whether you gave it a try!
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Offline Numpty

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Re: More annoying flash questions
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2008, 08:45:25 PM »
Thank you very much stef for the very in depth answer.
Just to check i have this right

The sony will work wirelesly with my A300. (i understand this)

Will this http://www.warehouseexpress.com/product/default.aspx?sku=1006117 work on a cheap flash if i use the sony flash so no wires needed?
Sony A300, Sony A550, Sony 18-70mm,18-55mm, 50mm SAM, 35mm SAM, 70-300 SSM G Tamron 90mm Macro, 17-50mm, Sony HVL-36FM 2xYonguno 460 Flash, Delta Macro FLash
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Offline Simon [aka springtide]

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Re: More annoying flash questions
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2008, 08:53:44 PM »
Simon- I don't use radio triggers as I never had the slightest hiccup with my beloved slave cells. I don't know how far they work but I can tell you we managed to trigger them when we really did NOT want them to go off. I had once a shooting on a very early morning at a lake to do some stills of the movie Don't Look Now and we were able to trigger all sorts of flashes with these little slave cells half way over and around the lake. I can't tell you how much I would love to urge you all to go and give it a try as it is soo much cheaper! Not that I care that much about money when it comes to good equipment but people seem to be soo afraid of experimenting with flash set ups and it's sooooo easy. I can only repeat just go out and pick up every cheap functioning flash you possibly can but don't forget the slave cells. Also don't forget- you can manually trigger these flashes if your exposure time is long enough. I.e if you want to light an aquarium from Behind- get an assistant to run on the other side of the aquarium- set the exposure time to roughly one second- count loud to three and get your friend to trigger the flash manually while you trigger the camera. Each time I give a lecture regarding flash it seems people are scared of it ???
Anyhow please let me know whether you gave it a try!
Stef.

Hi...

One of my main reasons for wanting to switch to Radio triggers is that the IR or slave cells do not work unless there is line of sight. I  have some slave cells and they work fine in most conditions, but not 'blind'.  I also have some Cactus triggers which are better, but again these are somewhat unreliable at long distances or when there is metal etc in the way (even with the 'Cactus Mods')

PW are way out of my price range, so have been looking at the Cybersyncs and Skyports.  Hence the question :)
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Offline Stef.

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Re: More annoying flash questions
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2008, 09:09:37 PM »
Thank you very much stef for the very in depth answer.
Just to check i have this right

The sony will work wirelesly with my A300. (i understand this)

Will this http://www.warehouseexpress.com/product/default.aspx?sku=1006117 work on a cheap flash if i use the sony flash so no wires needed?

Numpty I doubt it. The one on Warehouse Express appears to be one that needs to go onto the flash mount of the camera. Now if you look back at the top of this discussion unfortunately you can not mount just any hotshoe mount onto a Sony or Minolta camera. Look point 3) of my very first explanation. Also look at the images that I have posted you can see the slave cells with the little cables which attach directly to your flash. Those ones plus the little cables you can trigger with your on-camera flash. The one on Warehouse Express needs the adapter to configure it in a way so that it "fits" onto your camera. Does this make sense?
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Offline Simon [aka springtide]

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Re: More annoying flash questions
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2008, 10:32:41 PM »
Hi..

One thing to point out (which I don't think was picked up on the first time around) is there is no manual flash option on the A200/A300/A350 (unlike the A100/A700/A900)

You this is usually found on the A700 at:

Menu Button ->  Camera 1 -> Flash Control

See page 88 :  in the A300 manual:
http://pdf.crse.com/manuals/3287969151.pdf

What this means is that the built-in flash will always do "Preflash" (either ADI or TTL) so can't be used for triggering slaves.

If you want to use optical slaves, you need an FS-1100 (e.g. http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/4-pin-Hot-Shoe-Adapter-for-Sony-A700-A350-as-FS-1100_W0QQitemZ350125727515QQihZ022QQcategoryZ64354QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1713.m153.l1262) or equiv and a cheap flash for triggering.

« Last Edit: November 17, 2008, 10:34:54 PM by springtide »
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Offline Numpty

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Re: More annoying flash questions
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2008, 10:34:47 PM »
O.K im with you on that only sony and minolta flashes fit on the camera but i thought this fits to the cheap flash and is triggered by my sony flash no?

So what slave cell do i need?
Which lead to the slave cell?
Do the leads go to the slave cell and then to the cheap flash
Or from the slave to the master flash?
Sorry for being a real numpty and a pain.
Sony A300, Sony A550, Sony 18-70mm,18-55mm, 50mm SAM, 35mm SAM, 70-300 SSM G Tamron 90mm Macro, 17-50mm, Sony HVL-36FM 2xYonguno 460 Flash, Delta Macro FLash
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