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General Chat - not just photography => General Photography Talk => Topic started by: Frank [aka Wires] on February 12, 2015, 03:03:29 PM

Title: To mark &/or 'Copyright' or not?
Post by: Frank [aka Wires] on February 12, 2015, 03:03:29 PM
Interesting quandary...

My son is presently doing some 'voluntary/work experience' at the local museum with presently being unemployed and making ready to go to university. Part of the work he has/is undertaken is to help catalogue the artefacts of the museum by using his camera equipment and photography skills, gained through his BTEC Photography course. He receives no payment from the museum.

'My' question is: Should he put a 'watermark' on all of the images before he gives them to the museum?

I personally feel he should put his name on them, in small text, in one of the corners but not necessarily the copyright mark/symbol thereby giving any viewer notification that he was the photographer taking the image.

All comments welcome :)
Title: Re: To mark &/or 'Copyright' or not?
Post by: AScot on February 12, 2015, 07:08:42 PM
When we take a photo of a person we must, in theory, get that person's permission prior to taking the photo. We can then copyright the photo. When we take a photo of a landscape, do we have to get the permission of the landowner? Really what we are copyrighting is the artistic effect that we have captured in the photo. Copyright law is so confusing that I would say that your son, if he thinks it is important enough, should consult a Lawyer. In this case I would probably not copyright his museum photos as the artistic effect is the property of the museum.   :D  :D  :D I am probably totally wrong and I really think you should consult a lawyer. :D  :D  :D
Title: Re: To mark &/or 'Copyright' or not?
Post by: Frank [aka Wires] on February 12, 2015, 08:31:38 PM
Thanks Charles (Ascot)... I doubt he'd want to get in that deep with lawyers and such. :lol: Appreciate your input - and closing comment :lol:

I think he has probably got the EXIF data set to put his name in so IF anyone is looking at the image file properties then they'd see it there. I was thinking more along if a shot was printed up. I've seen some shots in books with old photos showing the photographers name on the photo - can't remember where though.

I was also thinking that IF they had provided the kit to take the image shots then they would be their property. As he used his + his computer and time at home he'd have some right to have his name displayed on them?

It's only me asking... he hasn't spoken to them about such stuff - even before he started doing it. I'll have to mention to him about it and get him to come to some arrangement with them about getting some recognition for his work in this area.

Oh! Apologies for the triplicated threads and the 'shouting' for removal of.
Title: Re: To mark &/or 'Copyright' or not?
Post by: chappo1 on February 12, 2015, 09:36:07 PM
My thoughts on mutilating an image with a watermark are well know so I will not rant.
I certainly would take legal advice if he is going to copyright as he will be photographing some-one else's work.
What I would do is to insist that the museum labels the image ....Photograph courtesy of "Frank's son" .  ......john
Title: Re: To mark &/or 'Copyright' or not?
Post by: Frank [aka Wires] on February 13, 2015, 09:02:36 AM
...<snip>...
What I would do is to insist that the museum labels the image ....Photograph courtesy of "Frank's son" .  ......john

:lol: Cheers John
Title: Re: To mark &/or 'Copyright' or not?
Post by: Faldrax on February 13, 2015, 10:58:54 AM
When we take a photo of a person we must, in theory, get that person's permission prior to taking the photo. We can then copyright the photo. When we take a photo of a landscape, do we have to get the permission of the landowner? Really what we are copyrighting is the artistic effect that we have captured in the photo. Copyright law is so confusing that I would say that your son, if he thinks it is important enough, should consult a Lawyer. In this case I would probably not copyright his museum photos as the artistic effect is the property of the museum.   :D  :D  :D I am probably totally wrong and I really think you should consult a lawyer. :D  :D  :D

Note that the law varies from country to country around the world.

In the UK, for example, there is NO requirement to get someone's permission to take a photograph of them (though it may well be bad manners not to ask). Copyright is also automatic - it is not something you have to 'do' - if you press the shutter then the copyright is yours (if you are doing so as part of contracted work, the copyright may then automatically be transferred to your employer, but that's a matter for the contract).
With respect to landscapes, again no permission required - BUT where you stand to take the image matters! Any non-public space (and this does include things like shopping centres / malls, which are privately owned but with common public access) can have conditions of entry - and these can place restrictions on photography. The National Trust, for example, which owns / manages huge areas of UK land, has as a condition of entry to any of its land / properties that commercial photography requires a purchased permit.

Other countries will have different rules - so if on holiday, it's worth checking if anything will affect you.
Title: Re: To mark &/or 'Copyright' or not?
Post by: Gordon McGeachie on February 13, 2015, 05:13:34 PM
if, for whatever reason, the museum claims copyright, then I think your son should at least be credited with the taking of the pictures...................
Title: Re: To mark &/or 'Copyright' or not?
Post by: Frank [aka Wires] on February 13, 2015, 05:37:23 PM
Thanks Gordon... I think so as well. Although it is good experience for him and something for his CV he has/is putting in a good amount of time other than his work experience time when at the museum where he is involved in other tasks.
Title: Re: To mark &/or 'Copyright' or not?
Post by: Frank [aka Wires] on February 13, 2015, 05:42:27 PM
Faldrax

Thanks for that snippet of information regarding the National Trust and photography on its properties. I was aware they did not allow photos for profit but didn't know about the 'permit' scheme. I checked out their site to find some more on their policy and await them contacting me with more information - be it on the purchase of a permit or shots taken as a 'visitor' - I am a member but didn't mention that fact in the enquiries.
Title: Re: To mark &/or 'Copyright' or not?
Post by: Chris82 on February 14, 2015, 09:36:02 AM
 Has your son talked with the museum regarding these issues and what they want/expect as i feel that would be the first step.
 Does the museum expect your son to waive his rights to the copyright so the images belong to them or will he still hold the copyright which should be the case?

 To me it sounds like a stock photography situation where he is shooting for the museum's "library" where your son will still own the right to the photographs but cannot use them commercially himself as it is simply cataloguing the artefacts. I would not expect to see a copyright/mark on the photo, however the museum should credit your son with the photo if it is used in print or online for anything to do with the museum.

I would speak with the museum first and with them if they are agreeable draw up a contract which includes your son holding/ keeping copyright to the images and also to be credited with any pictures which are used.
Title: Re: To mark &/or 'Copyright' or not?
Post by: Frank [aka Wires] on February 14, 2015, 12:21:20 PM
Thanks for your input Chris - appreciated :)

Although *I* have very recently asked him about this I got the impression that it is something that he and the museum have not discussed in any way. I also have the impression that neither party want to broach the subject and he is being taken advantage of in the scenario of 'how' he began doing 'work experience' with them: presently unemployed ('though looking for work), had the suggestion made - by the local Job Centre staff - that he should consider some voluntary 'work experience'.

He approached the museum, among other people/places, and the museum welcomed him with wide open arms. When they started to catalogue their items he may have volunteered to photograph them? He has been told by the Job Centre staff not to allow the others at the museum (mostly volunteers themselves from what I can gather!) to take advantage of him.

It is 'dad' that has said he should be talking to them about it - hence my thread here for some input from other members and to how they may handle such a situation - and not get to a position where 'they' may start to feel they are being 'abused' and/or taken for granted :)

I will be discussing it further with him BUT I do know that it is something he would rather not be asking about :(
Title: Re: To mark &/or 'Copyright' or not?
Post by: Chris82 on February 14, 2015, 01:30:34 PM
 Unfortunately if photography is what he wants to be doing then he may well have to be "pushy" at times to get to where he wants to be, all these things need to be agreed beforehand. Planning and organisation are key. I'm all for people doing voluntary stuff when starting out to gain experience, but there is no way he should be taken advantage of.
Having his credit to a photo if it is used/ published in any way is no big ask and is not going to cost them anything.

Given he that he "may" have volunteered to photograph the items i feel the best thing that he can do is to ask about the questions raised and their policy on it. The worst they can say is no to putting his name to any images used which i feel would be rather unfair.

We all learn from our mistakes, Hopefully it works out for him and he gets the recognition he deserves.
Title: Re: To mark &/or 'Copyright' or not?
Post by: Frank [aka Wires] on February 14, 2015, 01:47:35 PM
Thanks Chris... totally agree with what you have said.

Life is a great teacher... but it can also be a very hard teacher. He will learn - one way or another... sooner or later, just hope it is 'sooner' and he gets to see were he needs to be coming from ;)