Author Topic: Comb Toothed Histograms  (Read 1395 times)

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Offline ecniv

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Comb Toothed Histograms
« on: December 03, 2007, 02:08:08 PM »
Hi,

As a result of levels or curves processing, the histograms appear to be comb toothed. I assume this is bad as there must be data it is erasing/changing.

So how would you boost colours and brightness without getting the combtooth looking histogram..?

I have experimented with using the original layer on the bottom and using screen or overlay to boost after setting the top layer with curve/levels. Just thinking it is not the best way and that there must be others you use/prefer.


alternatively, are there some settings to use on the camera to boost these in Raw?

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Offline gazraa

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Re: Comb Toothed Histograms
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2007, 06:59:55 PM »
The combed effect is because you've stretched out the original histogram to reach the end points of black and white.

I think (disclaimer :) ) that if you edit in 16 bit mode and make levels adjustments you get less of a comb effect when you switch back to 8 bit.

It's always good practice to to as much editing in 16 bit mode anyway if I remember rightly.

I don't think the comb effect is a problem, what is more important is that you have true whites and true blacks in your images (unless you are going for an effect like high key that might not need the full range).

As I've typed this, I'm doubting myself more and more :) so hopefully someone can either back me up or rip my answer to shreds.
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Offline Rob aka [minolta mad]

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Re: Comb Toothed Histograms
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2007, 07:55:04 PM »
I find that if i edit as much as possible in raw, as opposed to ps, then the historgram doesnt show the comb tooths that you mention.

And as gazzra says, its always best to edit in 16bit anyway as if there is information missing, there's more information to start with so wouldnt be so bad.

Have you found the missing information a problem !


Stef would be the best person to answer this thread, im sure she'll be logged on 2nite to let us know how the exam went.


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Offline Stef.

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Re: Comb Toothed Histograms
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2007, 10:19:20 AM »
If you save the image inbetween or flatten the layers the comb effect should be gone. Try to save an image- close it and open it again and then look at your levels- hopefully no comb effect.
Let me know how you get on?
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Offline Simon [aka springtide]

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Re: Comb Toothed Histograms
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2007, 10:43:29 AM »

Thats a really interesting comment about editing in 16bit.

I've got into the habit of editing in 8 bit, since most of the menus in PS seemed to be disabled if you opened in 16bit.

I must admit that I also still don't fully understand what colour space I should be using while editing.  I understand what I need to match the colour spare when sending prints off, but don't understand what I should be using for the "master images".

Lastly, I was talking with someone yesterday and they seemed to state that I should be saving everything as TIFF and not PSD.  Is there a difference in quality.  I understand TIFF is an open standard and PSD is proprietary, but I don't mind using proprietary if it preserves more data, which is what I assumed PSD would (since I'd like to keep all of the layer info etc).

Sorry if this is off topic.  Maybe (soon to be Dr) Stef - would be the expert on this?
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Offline Rob aka [minolta mad]

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Re: Comb Toothed Histograms
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2007, 04:56:06 PM »
I must admit that I also still don't fully understand what colour space I should be using while editing. 


From what information that ive read ( rightly or wrongly ( correct me please DR Stef :lol: )  i was under the impression it was best to edit in RGB or sRGB and not ps or other programs working colour space.  I cant remember now the reasons for this as it was a while ago now.


Lastly, I was talking with someone yesterday and they seemed to state that I should be saving everything as TIFF and not PSD.


In the latest digital photo mag, the guy in there was saying that once edited in raw you should save as a tiff, but stated that you shoulnt flatten the image, therefore all the layer and alteration info is still there should you need to go back and edit the image or make changes.

Simon,
Do you have CS2 or CS3, as i cant see that many that are disabled


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Offline Simon [aka springtide]

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Re: Comb Toothed Histograms
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2007, 07:20:54 PM »

Rob,

I looked at work today and a lot less are disabled than before.  I was using CS but have upgraded to CS2/CS3

There is a lot less disabled before.  In fact, I might have been using a much older erion of PS when I last tried using 16bit.

OK, will now switch to 16bit TIFF.  Thanks :D

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Offline Stef.

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Re: Comb Toothed Histograms
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2007, 01:39:43 PM »
Quote
I've got into the habit of editing in 8 bit, since most of the menus in PS seemed to be disabled if you opened in 16bit

Considering for one moment that you have ininite space on your harddrive:

You should always work with 16 bit files if possible.

Each colour image is made up of three colour channels. Each channel contains 8-bit grayscale information (2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2) defining the amount of each colour component making up the colour image. When the three colour channels are overlaid a single pixel in an RGB colour image contains 3x8-bits of information (256x256x256) which makes it a 24-bit colour image that can define up to 16.7 mio possible colours.
16 bit images contain 2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2= 65536 bits of information per channel so 65536x65536x65536 which gives us around 281 trillion possible colours- in short many more colours that with 8 bit depth. (For a longer explanation please see: www.photoshopessentials.com/essentials/16-bit/)

Eventhough our eyes are incapable in seeing all this colours the information is nevertheless there and for adjusting your images etc. useful- avoids for instance to a great extent "toothed histograms" and is very useful for high definition images.

CS3 now supports 16bit editing to a wide extent (so no more greys in your application!)

Now next part of the question: which colour space?
Well this is debatable as all is...the "best" colour space is Adobe RGB (1998). Why? Well is has been establishes as the recommended RGB editing spave for RGB files that are destined to be converted to CMYK. It has a larger colour garmut that is particular suited for RGB to CMYK colour conversions. So here again work with the most information available if you can!

Tiff versus PSD:
It is probably cleat that only Photoshop, PDF and TIFF formats are capable of supporting all the Photoshop features such as vector masks and adjustment layers and layers in general. Saving in Photoshop format should result in a more compact files size except when you save a layered image with the "maximize backward compatibility" checked in preferences. Now Photoshop files have one serious advantage when you use a file in various Adobe applications at the same time (as I do as I work a lot with Premiere and Phtoshop) Now if I change an image in Photoshop that I also you in an editing programm that this file will automatically be changed in ALL Adobe applications- which is really useful. So in other words any changes in any Adobe Programm and save as a PS file will adjust the file automatically once opened in another Adobe application! REALLY useful!

Tiff files with lossless compressions take usually longer to open. Tiff is usually used when you distribute to someone else. They will usually ask you for flattening the file and removing all alpha channels as this could cause them problems.

To summarise all of the above: Adobe RGB (1998); 16 bit files and saving in PS format is the best for the time being. Once you send it to somebody else save it as a tiff file. Generally speaking- the bigger the better!

Hope this clarifies some questions- any more- feel free to ask... :)

Best
Dr. Stef. (yep- for all of you who don't know it yet- I passed my viva with distinction! For people who don't know me: Dr. Stef. for all my friends Dr. is enough hihi- as if I gave a damn about titles...)





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Offline Rob aka [minolta mad]

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Re: Comb Toothed Histograms
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2007, 02:26:11 PM »
Well done Stef   Sorry Dr :lol:

Congratulations



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Offline ecniv

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Re: Comb Toothed Histograms
« Reply #9 on: December 25, 2007, 01:14:34 AM »
Thank you for the replies.

I will try to edit in 16bit - but I think Gimp is 8 bit. I will check :)

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